Curse

Ollj · Aug 07, 2005, 03:19 PM // 15:19

fact 1 (Healing):
Unless you do not use Vigorous Spirit AND Live Vicariously you are wasting Attribute points if you have more than 12+1 Healing Prayers!
fact 2 (Protecting):
Unless you dont use Mark of Protection/Restore Condition AND Life Bond AND Mend Ailment AND Mend Condition you are wasting Attribute points if you have more than 12+1 Protection Prayers.
Fact 3 (smiting):
Baltazars aura uses Attribute Points most effective around ONLY ~7 Smiting Prayers!!! No smiting Skill needs more than 14 Smiting Prayers (most smiting skills are most effective per spend attribute point ~11)!
Fact 3 (divine):
Use 5, 10 or 15 divine favour (15 is best to be honnest but 0 works fine, too)!
Fact 4 (Weapon damage bonus)!
Above 12-13 your weapon gets barely any bonus for each attribute skill more (signoid curve).

To get these "most effective skill point usage" you just have to look how much your green numbers increase and how much you pay for that in attribute points! - of course the skills cost, cast time and recharge time is ignored here

So with healing, protecting and smiting <14 what does this mean?

Overspecialisated one sided Monks are (generally) not using their attribute points optimal!!!

A far better usage of Monk Attribute Points (and so far better healing, protection and smiting rates) can be achieved if there is just 1-2 Monks that have Their skills all around ~12 and that have 5,10 or 15 divine favour AND that tell each other what skills they use, so they do not use the same enchantment on the same player...!

Ollj · Aug 07, 2005, 03:20 PM // 15:20

of course this also means, the so popular 12+4 Healing 12+3 Divine Monk with only healing Skills (incl word of healing of course

) ist JUST NOT THAT GOOD!

Tigris Of Gaul · Aug 07, 2005, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Um... how about no.

Ollj · Aug 07, 2005, 03:45 PM // 15:45

5 of those monks just killed the unholys in 28 seconds, you better bring good arguments.

Neo-LD · Aug 07, 2005, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Oh not again! Where the heck are these arbitrary numbers coming from?

"Facts" 1 and 2 are worded confusingly, so I wont comment on those except to say that most intelligent monks dont use live vicariously, life bond, or other maintained enchantments.

I myself have not researched so I cannot be sure ou are correct, but for the sake of discussion we will assume that balth's aura does not get as big a bonus as you raise smiting above 7. Now I ask you, if you are a smiter, and only put 7 points in smiting, where the hell do all those other points go? Wherever you put them, they arent working as hard for you as if they were in smiting. Smiting is the kind of thing that you either focus entirely on or dont do at all. Monks that try to heal/smite dont usually heal or smite very well.

Where the heck are these 5, 10, 15 DF numbers coming from? Knowing your obsession with "attribute efficiency" I would have thought that if you suggested any specific numbers, they would have been 3, 8, and 13 since those are the numbers wherre you get a +4 DF increase from last level, instead of 3, due to rounding. 5/10/15 sound like you just picked some numbers out of a hat. btw no monk should ever use 0 divine favor.

There is already a discussion on the 16 weapon attribute debate. I might add that it was gnerally agreed in the end that even if the total damage bonus decreased above 112, those points would still serve the warrior better there than anywhere else.

Ishamael Sedai · Aug 07, 2005, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ollj

fact 1 (Healing):
Unless you do not use Vigorous Spirit AND Live Vicariously you are wasting Attribute points if you have more than 12+1 Healing Prayers!

Would you please explain this? Regardless of whether or not what you are saying is true, stating that something is a fact does not make it so. Furthermore, please state under what conditions you claim that your statement is true. Do you mean while soloing UW? Do you mean tombs? Do you mean competition arenas? Do you mean team arenas? Do you mean roaming around post searing ascalon with a level 20 monk?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ollj

fact 2 (Protecting):
Unless you dont use Mark of Protection/Restore Condition AND Life Bond AND Mend Ailment AND Mend Condition you are wasting Attribute points if you have more than 12+1 Protection Prayers.

Would you please explain this? Regardless of whether or not what you are saying is true, stating that something is a fact does not make it so. Furthermore, please state under what conditions you claim that your statement is true. Do you mean while soloing UW? Do you mean tombs? Do you mean competition arenas? Do you mean team arenas? Do you mean roaming around post searing ascalon with a level 20 monk?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ollj

Fact 3 (smiting):
Baltazars aura uses Attribute Points most effective around ONLY ~7 Smiting Prayers!!! No smiting Skill needs more than 14 Smiting Prayers (most smiting skills are most effective per spend attribute point ~11)!

Would you please explain this? Regardless of whether or not what you are saying is true, stating that something is a fact does not make it so. Furthermore, please state under what conditions you claim that your statement is true. Do you mean while soloing UW? Do you mean tombs? Do you mean competition arenas? Do you mean team arenas? Do you mean roaming around post searing ascalon with a level 20 monk?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ollj

Fact 3 (divine):
Use 5, 10 or 15 divine favour (15 is best to be honnest but 0 works fine, too)!
Fact 4 (Weapon damage bonus)!
Above 12-13 your weapon gets barely any bonus for each attribute skill more (signoid curve).

Would you please explain this? Regardless of whether or not what you are saying is true, stating that something is a fact does not make it so. Furthermore, please state under what conditions you claim that your statement is true. Do you mean while soloing UW? Do you mean tombs? Do you mean competition arenas? Do you mean team arenas? Do you mean roaming around post searing ascalon with a level 20 monk?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ollj

To get these "most effective skill point usage" you just have to look how much your green numbers increase and how much you pay for that in attribute points! - of course the skills cost, cast time and recharge time is ignored here).

This is false. IF you said, "To get these 'most effective skill point usage" you need to look at how much your green numbers increase and how much you pay for that in attribute points! - of course the skills cost, cast time, and recharge time is ignored here," that would be true. But you said "just" which means that's the only thing you need to look at. This is blatantly false. You also need to look at who are you fighting, do you have teammates, if so how many, what are the builds (or likely builds) of your enemies, and what are the builds of your teammates if you have any? You also might want to take a peak at which skills you are bringing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ollj

So with healing, protecting and smiting <14 what does this mean?

Overspecialisated one sided Monks are (generally) not using their attribute points optimal!!!

A far better usage of Monk Attribute Points (and so far better healing, protection and smiting rates) can be achieved if there is just 1-2 Monks that have Their skills all around ~12 and that have 5,10 or 15 divine favour AND that tell each other what skills they use, so they do not use the same enchantment on the same player...!

Once again I hate to beat a dead horse but you really need to tell us under what conditions you are speaking of? Personally I know in some instances no monks are best because I am solo farming and want all the drops for myself

.

Ishamael Sedai · Aug 07, 2005, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ollj

5 of those monks just killed the unholys in 28 seconds, you better bring good arguments.

as if a team with traditional monks has never done that

Xue Yi Liang · Aug 07, 2005, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Allow me to quote Tigris of Gaul: "no."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ollj

fact 2 (Protecting):
Unless you dont use Mark of Protection/Restore Condition AND Life Bond AND Mend Ailment AND Mend Condition you are wasting Attribute points if you have more than 12+1 Protection Prayers.

no.
Here's just one example:
Some PvE Protectors specialize in being perpetual Aegis machines for FoW and UW. This means they extend enchants with Blessed Aura and/or weapon modifiers (+/- Echo or Arcane Echo) - When you have 2 or more monks on a party you can split responsibilities and subspecialize instead of having overlapping responsibilities. Doesn't hurt to max out on Protection and Divine Favor in this case. (digression: How many times have 2 monks healed the same person or launched Aegis at the same time?).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ollj

Fact 3 (smiting):
Baltazars aura uses Attribute Points most effective around ONLY ~7 Smiting Prayers!!! No smiting Skill needs more than 14 Smiting Prayers (most smiting skills are most effective per spend attribute point ~11)!

You're just restating the "Law of Diminishing Returns." While you do get less bang for the buck at high attribute levels it doesn't take away from anything if your build is based on only 2 attributes. You are assuming every monk will need to equip skills from 3+ attributes - and that's not always true. I have strong builds based on strong Smite + Divine Favor (farmer) as well as Protection + Divine Favor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ollj

Fact 4 (Weapon damage bonus)!
Above 12-13 your weapon gets barely any bonus for each attribute skill more (signoid curve).

Do you mean asymptotic curve? A sigmoid curve is an "S."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ollj

To get these "most effective skill point usage" you just have to look how much your green numbers increase and how much you pay for that in attribute points! - of course the skills cost, cast time and recharge time is ignored here

umm - FYI - cast time and recharge time are important considerations - you can't ignore them. This really weakens your argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ollj

Overspecialisated one sided Monks are (generally) not using their attribute points optimal!!!

The funny part is that you open with a strong statement like "Healing/Protection monk = BULLSHIT!" - and now you weaken your point with "one sided Monks are (generally) not using their attributes optimal(ly)..."

Perhaps the thread should be titled "Healing/Protection monk in general = BULLSHIT IMO (since I haven't tested them) provided you also don't consider cast/recharge time"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ollj

A far better usage of Monk Attribute Points (and so far better healing, protection and smiting rates) can be achieved if there is just 1-2 Monks that have Their skills all around ~12 and that have 5,10 or 15 divine favour AND that tell each other what skills they use, so they do not use the same enchantment on the same player...!

OK, then. Prove it.

octaviancmb · Aug 07, 2005, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Speaking only from personal experience, and lacking the numbers on-hand, I can tell you that a full protection/divine favor build is one of the most outstanding builds for PvE.

However, a "mixed" attribute distribution can be good, too; so I see the point you're trying to make. Smiting/Protecting/Divine Favor is just really a solid way to go to damage and heal at the same time. Generally I tend to work as a member of a team, and the "mixed" distribution is not as efficient a use for my energy as the Elementalists', Mesmers', Necromancers', Rangers', and Warriors' energy. IMHO, of course.

But don't diss a full protection build out of hand. Having 16 in protection extends the usefulness of virtually all spamable protections as well as a couple of the longer enchantments. (Again, no numbers handy, so you'll just have to trust me for now.) But will your team *die* if you have only a 12 or 13 in protection? Probably not. But at 16, your energy recovers faster because you get more "bang for your buck" and can wait longer between casts.

I'm sure healing has its place, too, but I gave it up long ago in favor of a protection/divine build. I'll let someone experienced in healing take up its defense.

Ollj · Aug 07, 2005, 06:14 PM // 18:14

im talking about anything but solo farming here.
and im not ignoring specialisation, casting time and charging time, im just putting that further back.

Quote:

Smiting is the kind of thing that you either focus entirely on or dont do at all

Almost true.

Smiting has just a frew skills that do not get much petter per attribute:
Holy Wrath
Retribution
Bane Signet
Balthazar's Aura
Banish
Those are not worth much smiting prayers being spend in.
For all others , just use more than 10 smiting and youre fine.

3 8 13 Divine Favour related to what, a certin Skill? youre confusing me here.
5 10 15 comes from:
Rounding DOWN of the 3,2 extra healing Divine Favour gives you-
0 of any primary attribute is never good.

so heres 2 monks, both are mixed, but they still are very different and noone uses a skill the otherone uses, so they cant mess each other up!

They are designed to counter Rangers and air eles and still experimental by the way.
The upper one is based on 15 divine and divine spirit, just that its "maxing Attribute point usage" and preferably uses skills that cost 10.
The lower one is based on Glyph of Lesser Energy and classic Zealots fire smiting.
They do not remove conditions because it did not fit for them that good, it fit WAY better into another character of their team build.

Mo (divine 10spirit)
- Divine 11+4:
+Divine Intervention 10 1/4 30 (no diing)
+Divine Spirit 10 1/4 60 (monks skills cost 5 less)
+Divine Healing 10 2 60 (heal self and nearby)
- Healing Prayers 10+1:
+Healing Touch 5 3/4 5 (heal +divine)
+Heal Other 10 3/4 3 (heal)
+Word of Healing [E] 5 3/4 4 (heal alot)
- Protection Prayers 10+1:
+Protective Spirit 10 3/4 5 (ovrused prot skill)
+Vengeance (res enchantment)

Mo/E (Smiting Prot 15lesser):
- Divine Favour 5+1:
- Smiting 10+4:
+Zealot's Fire 10 1 30
- Protection 10+1:
+Spell Breaker [E] 15 1 45 (can not take spells)
+Aegis 15 1 30 (miss) <- optimal at 7 but [sadly] a must have
+Reversal of Fortune 5 1/2 2 (heal + no damage)
+Draw Conditions 5 1/4 0 (remove one condition)
- Helaing Prayers 10+1:
+Healing Seed 15 2 25 (heal if attacked)
+Heal Party 15 2 0 (heal party)
- Elementalist General:
+Glyph of lesser E. 5 1 30 (-15 cost)

Zelc · Aug 07, 2005, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ollj

3 8 13 Divine Favour related to what, a certin Skill? youre confusing me here.
5 10 15 comes from:
Rounding DOWN of the 3,2 extra healing Divine Favour gives you-
0 of any primary attribute is never good.

Wrong. I don't think anything in Guild Wars rounds down except for possibly recharge times. Everything rounds to the nearest number, including energy costs and Divine Favor.

Diminishing returns exist for extra attribute points past a certain point, but the problem with your analysis is you ignore the fact that one has only 8 skill slots. In those 8 skill slots, one can reasonably use skills from two or three attributes (or more, but that's less common). If that is the case, the most efficient ways of distributing your attribute points are 12/12, 11/10/10, or 12/10/8. It'd be worthless to put attribute points into any attribute you're not using.

Efficiency should not always be maximized. Sometimes you just want the highest raw numbers. And don't discount small increases. I have been brought down to single digit hp before being healed up. Had the enemy stuck some extra points in their damage attribute, I might have died instead.

Ollj · Aug 07, 2005, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Right zelec, more than 4 is useless.

Im not ignoring the limit of skill slots, NO im optimizing that with my numbers!
Actually Gash is a wasted skill slot with 16 Swordsmanship but NOT when used with only 7 Swordsmanship (as secondary Warrior).
~2 skills per attribute can work good because of the over exponential Attribute point cost for specialisation.
its hard to ballance that.

And then theres skills that dont need an atribute anyways, perfect for the secondary class.

Tuon · Aug 07, 2005, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Can someone please write a translation of what he's saying?

Tellani Artini · Aug 07, 2005, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Ollj, it sounds great on paper, but when you cast over 100 healing or prot spells in a fight, a little goes a long way percentage-wise. The increase over 12 or whatever might be small, but I'd rather have a 15 healer than a 12/12 healer/protector backing me up any day. It's a matter of attribute point efficiency (more bang per attrib point spent) versus energy efficiency (more bang per energy point spent). Every spell cast by a 15 healer and a 15 protector working together will be more powerful than two 12/12 healer/protectors working together.

Ollj · Aug 07, 2005, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Tellani doesnt get it.
you heal just a few points more for specialisating but for each of that points you payed attribute points that grow exponential.

An "unspecialisated" build has the same skill costs ... just a little less green numbers on healing, but that little les helaing is spend in a LOT MORE protecrion in the green numbers of the protection skills.

another deal in specialisating is if one dies. OMG no more protecting OR more healing,
unspecialisated builds can compensate that easier.

Tellani Artini · Aug 07, 2005, 07:00 PM // 19:00

I get it, I'm just saying I disagree.

Ollj · Aug 07, 2005, 07:18 PM // 19:18

So you say (for Baltazars aura) it is worth 20 attribute points to boost it from 21 to 22 while I just use 7 attribute points to bost it from 16 to17?

It doesnt matter what kind of damage it is, how long it lasts and what the skill costs.
Its effect strength is just not increasing enough to justify spending more than 7 attribute points in it.

Most healing/protection skills only increase enough to justify pushing attribute skill to ~12, not higher.
and yes, im calculating with half points (aka peanuts) here, but they sum up a lot and they sum up the more, the longer you play.

8 slots:
say you have 8 skills all healing skills (with max divine) 12+4 12+1 (3) attribute points spread over the same skills [16 16 16 16 16 16 16 16] but relatively low green numbers because of exponential cost.
Say I have 8 skills using 4 different attributes (all primary) at 10+4 10+1 8+1 8+1 (4), [14 14 11 11 9 9 9 9] this build uses skills with green numbers that do not increase much (green numbers that are already relatively high with 0 atribute skill) and than its just as good.

now the deal is that helaing or protection does not work as good with 16 13 3 as with 12 11 14 1!

Deltu · Aug 07, 2005, 07:29 PM // 19:29

You know what? I just say become a mo/r boost your smiting as hhigh as you can without sacking too much health, get a zealous bow, maybe about 5 in healing prayers, set some traps and poison, and kick the enemies ass. Worked for a long time for me

Ollj · Aug 07, 2005, 07:38 PM // 19:38

wow delto. thats so out of context!

Tellani Artini · Aug 07, 2005, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ollj

So you say (for Baltazars aura) it is worth 20 attribute points to boost it from 21 to 22 while I just use 7 attribute points to bost it from 16 to17?

It doesnt matter what kind of damage it is, how long it lasts and what the skill costs.
Its effect strength is just not increasing enough to justify spending more than 7 attribute points in it.

Most healing/protection skills only increase enough to justify pushing attribute skill to ~12, not higher.
and yes, im calculating with half points (aka peanuts) here, but they sum up a lot and they sum up the more, the longer you play.

Don't recall saying anything about smiting, but doesn't a 16 smiting balthazar's aura do a lot more damage than a 7-8 smiting one? It's the difference between nibbling and biting. I'll take the +80 or so total damage over points spent in a redundant attribute.

With 8 skills slots per player and 64 per team, how can you claim to afford so much redundancy between players? Like I said, on paper your theory is excellent. In practice, it just isn't nearly as powerful or energy-efficient as specialization. When skills like quickening zephyr or predatory season come into play, players backed up by redundant monks will die sooner as the energy-efficiency gap widens.